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The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen ‘Breadman’ Edwards tackling topics such as Claressa Shields vs. Savannah Marshall, the recent win by Andy Ruiz over Luis Ortiz, the unexpected loss by Jose Valenzuela, and more. (photo by Ryan Hafey)
Bread,
Had to comment on the Wilder/Reggie Miller clutch post. You’re spot on. Reggie once scored 8 points in less than 9 seconds to secure the Pacers a win. Scary similar to the way Wilder had scored ko’s. The Bronze Bomber will be down big, then BOOM, he wins. Wow. Curious who you feel are the top 5 most clutch NBA players of all time? As a kid, when Reggie scored those 8 quick points, I thought he was more clutch than MJ for a hot minute (in case you out there reading this are too young, Michael Jordan was a God walking the earth with mortals. There were urban legends about his Airness like he used to lift weights before every game or would go to Rucker Park at 4am to get work in before destroying the knicks later that day.)
Thanks Bread,
Mark Stoy, Columbus Ohio
Bread’s Response: Top 5 most Clutch players in NBA history.
Michael Jordan
Jerry West
Reggie Miller
Larry Bird
Lebron James.
Before you say anything about James look at his playoff numbers after 2011. And look at his playoff run from 2012-19. Points avg, and game winners. The 1st game he played of the 2018 finals that JR Smith blew that he scored 51 in vs GSW may be the best finals performance I have seen James is as clutch as clutch players have ever been but no one recognizes it because someone a long time ago said he wasn’t clutch, and people were DUMB enough to repeat it without proof.
Good evening Breadman,
The fights were solid, I wouldn’t say PPV worthy. Overall lots of fighters on display with the prelims. The highlights were Cruz and De Los Santos with the stoppage wins. I will say Valenzuela losing was a big upset as I feel as though PBC was building him. He’s young and they should keep him away from bangers as he opens up too wide and can be caught. I read your mailbag on Saturday and you were right about Ortiz. His legs do not appear to be there as you has stated. I think Wilder is all wrong for Ruiz, I see him doing the same he did to Arreola and Stiverne. A fight with Usyk could be fun as Ruiz’s fast combos would present some problems. I like Ruiz, I just don’t see him beating any of the current champions, let alone Wilder.
While I wish there were guys at the top of each division that fought each other, I cannot hate on them fighting 2-3 times a year and getting paid. Too often we complain about fighters fighting too long or being punch drunk. I think people forget that it wasn’t until the last couple of decades where most fighters were making decent money. Once upon a time and even some countries still pay boxers very little. PBC has really ensured that the fighters get paid well, not taking too risky of fights and ensuring we don’t have too many cases of CTE down the road. I am not certain if you have answered this before – how would you see Duran or Sweet Pea v Pryor @ 140 lbs and Margarito vs Hurd @ 152 lbs catch weight? Last question, name the top 10 fighters all time @ 115 lbs? I see Tapia, Galaxy, Donaire, Chocolatito, Inuoe and a few others that would be in there.
All the best!
Richard K
Bread’s Response: Fighters don’t fight enough in this era. I don’t want to hear about CTE. 2 to 3 times a year will not cause in any extra CTE. In fact it will allow them to cut less weight and be sharper. The reason they aren’t fighting has nothing to do with CTE safety and everything to do with money.
Ortiz’s legs are gone and that’s why I didn’t pick him to win.
Pryor is an interesting hypothetical match up. He looks like a wide open slugger who is on the verge of getting clipped, but it never happened anywhere close to his prime. His only career loss was late in his career after drug addiction. Pryor could also box, had fast hands and his stamina is legendary. So I would say Duran would maul him and work his body and stop his forward momentum. I’m not sure but I would take Duran. Whitaker on the other hand boxes at a pace that Pryor could eat up. Whitaker was a devastating body puncher but I don’t know if he could box Pryor at that pace. They may have to fight 3x to figure it out. Aaron Pryor is a nightmare for any fighter in history 140 and under.
Dear Mr. Edwards.
After seeing Luis Ortiz knocked down multiple times but go the distance and remain competitive, can you provide your analysis of the different ways fighters can be hurt (e.g. buzzed, flash knockdown, equilibrium) and how you think they can be overcome?
Thank you.
Bread’s Response: some fighters lose their punch resistance in a way where they go down, but it’s more of a buzz where their legs go for a few seconds but they can function because the recovery is quick and they’re at a point where it isn’t a shock to them anymore because they’re always hurt. I think Ortiz fits this description.Some guys disconnect and it looks scary. Like say Amir Khan. Khan is a fighter who scares me when he’s hurt. But Ortiz is a functional buzz hurt. All hurts aren’t the same.
Juan Francisco Estrada is supposed to be a top pound for pound fighter. He just fought a dead even fight against Argi Cortes. Some of the best names on Estrada’s resume (Cuadras and Sor Rungvisai) have recently been handled by Jesse Rodriguez Franco.The best name on Estrada’s resume (Chocolatito) is in his fourth weight class and has been far from dominant at the weight. I think it’s even fair to say that Chocolatito has struggled at the weight. I’ve seen too many red flags and wonder if Estrada really is a top 10 pound for pound guy right now. I would love your take.
Bread’s Response: Estrada is a great fighter. A HOF. One of the best little men of this era. But I agree with you. He’s not a top 10 P4P fighter at this moment. He lost to Chocolatito in their last fight. I don’t care what anyone says, I believe the judges mistakenly scored rounds for Estrada that were meant for Choc and were too prideful to say they made a mistake.
I watched that fight Choc vz Gallo 3x because of the technical brilliance. There is literally no way Estrada won. No way! Everyone who is objective knows it! Choc won a clean 7-5 or swingy 8-4. It makes me cringe when I see P4P list with Estrada over Choc when Choc beat him 2x and had a better overall career. I don’t get it. Also Bam Rodriguez would beat Estrada right now in their careers. So again I agree, I like Estrada but he’s only the 3rd best fighter in his weight class. He’s not top 10 P4P. It’s close but I can think of a dozen fighters who are performing at a higher level at this current moment. P4P list are essential in my opinion. But I think the contributors take too long recognizing the elite talent that is emerging.
Bread,
Hope all is well at your end. I remember long back I wrote to Doug Fischer about my understanding of old school training methods. As far as I knew, old heads did not lift weights, didn’t do a lot of speed bag, did a lot of heavy bag work, did a lot of PT exercises, ab crunches, roadwork, rope jumping, wood chopping and sparring. When I wrote this to Doug, he mentioned that I was right on all counts except sparring. He said that old heads sparred very little. I was a bit surprised as I thought the best way to learn something is to actually do it. I said the same to Doug and he still said that they sparred very little and instead preferred fighting in the ring more often. Given that he is practically a boxing historian, I am inclined to believe him. Now, you consider intense sparring absolutely essential for a training camp. In your view, were the old heads wrong about sparring?
Regards, Saurabh
Bread’s Response: I didn’t read Doug’s response to your question so it’s hard for me to say if you took it in the correct context, but IF he said that the old heads sparred very little I strongly disagree. I have been around the old heads. I have seen camps run by trainers who are 20+ years older than me. I don’t know what the phrase, “very little” means. But on the average world class fighters spar 2-3 times per week. The sessions vary from 4 rounds at the beginning of camp. And they go up progressively to 10-12. Some coaches will make you push over 12 a few times. If the average camp is 8 weeks then just do the math. Ask any reputable head coach, don’t take my word. No matter their age… they had to learn from somebody.
Again, I don’t know what very little means. But the best way to get in shape for a fight, is to spar. It’s the closest thing to real a fight you can simulate. Emanuel Steward and Freddie Roach are the leading trainers of the modern era. Ask their disciples how often their guys spar. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. A world class fighters greatest camp expenses is sparring partners. Either flying them in. Lodging them. Feeding them….What have you…And it’s always been that way. Read books on Sonny Liston. Ali. Foreman. I grew up in Philadelphia and trained at Joe Frazier’s gym. I would consider him an old head. Frazier Sparred! And he sparred hard! He told me personally.
Here is the rule on general sparring in a camp where you aren’t doing technical light work and your partners are on the level. You’re working! You’re hitting the other guy hard. You aren’t holding back because you’re getting ready for a fight. If you drop a guy, you drop him. You don’t necessarily try to finish him. But you’re hitting him hard. If you wobble or stun your partner the general rule is hold up and allow him to gather himself. A good coach will step in anyway if the guy is in trouble. Now those are the general rules. Obviously there are exceptions. But that’s pretty much it for the world class level. Or even high level amateurs.
Maybe Dougie meant back in the day, camps didn’t have to be so long because the fighters fought more often. That I believe. So maybe you could do a camp in 6 weeks instead of 8 weeks because top fighters were fighting 3-4 times a year instead of 1x every 8 months. So camps back then could be shorter and more efficient. So the total number of rounds sparred may not have been as much as you do now. I can see that. But work is still work. We call sparring, work!
There are videos on youtube of old heads sparring. James Toney vs Gerald McClellan. Nigel Benn vs Roberto Duran. Ray Leonard decapitating multiple people. Mike Tyson, who Kevin Rooney said he sparred every day. These are all facts not an opinion. Again the best way to get ready for a fight, is to SPAR! It’s better than every single exercise, or floor drill you can do.
As far as the other stuff road work, jumping rope, PT body weight exercises, wood chopping and bag work are still great ways to stay in shape. The jump rope builds up cardio, coordination and allows you to work the rhythm of the fight. Heavy bag builds punching power and endurance. Very important. Double end builds accuracy and eyes. Body weight exercises such as push ups, dips, pull ups, core and body squats gets you strong without getting you big. Roadwork is needed it and builds legs and endurance. But fighters don’t need to run over 5miles in my opinion. 3 is ideal but 5 should be the max. As science has improved we now know that over running slows you down and starts to produce too much estrogen. Sprints are needed for explosiveness and it pulls energy from a different source than jogging does. Wood chopping builds dead weight heavy hands, and strength in the forearms and back. Speed bag. The speed bag is underused even in this era. It’s called the speed bag. It builds speed but it also builds shoulder endurance because you have to hit it with your hands up. Those things still get you in shape today. Strength coaches are great if they know what they’re doing. I will leave it at that.
Everyone is obsessed with, and focuses on wins, but there can be a hidden brilliance, nobility, and “win,” in graceful, heroic defeats. As someone who likes to watch old fights and read about boxing history, performance is just as important to me as the win.Two impressive defeats come to mind for me: Foreman vs Holyfield (at the time, magic) Cotto vs Alvarez (this loss aged really well) What do you think of those two? Do you have any other examples?
Jay
Bread’s Response: How a fighter performs is the #1 thing to me regardless of the loss or win. Performance value. Tommy Hearns performed as well as any welterweight in history the night he lost to Sugar Ray Leonard. Sugar Ray Leonard performed on the level vs Roberto Duran. Evander Holyfield performed on the level vs Riddick Bowe. Alexis Arguello performed on the level vs Aaron Pryor. I can give you 1000s of fights as examples.
Today we have too many unqualified trolls heckling fighters for losing. Rolly Romero just performed very well vs Tank Davis. One adjustment and Romero wins that fight. Tank was in a real fight and he knew it and all you see is people clowning Romero with memes of the ko defeat overlooking how well he actually performed. Cotto fought his butt off vs Alvarez. Cotto not only didn’t get stopped but he won his share of rounds vs a 25 yr old fighter who was entering a HOF run. Foreman took Holyfield to hell. Again. He took a 29 yr old HOF fighter to hell who was in his prime. When a fighter gives you all he has, then he needs attribution for his performance not scrutiny for the loss.
Hello Bread,
I just wanted to touch on 2 boxers who I believe are amongst the most naturally gifted fighters that ever laced them up. I’ve studied both and have watched their first 2 fights many times with my jaw hanging somewhere in my lap. I believe these 2 ATG were born fighters. Mike had 1 of the best trainers ever in Futch and he knew what he saw in him. I can’t think of any fighters in the last 40 years that were as relaxed and instinctive as these 2 inside the ring? Toney weighed 156lb against Nunn and on that night he would’ve been life and death with any middleweight that ever lived he was that good! You can’t teach what he had and Mike was similar who fought a prime Toney in his mid 30’s what a fighter! His clinical dissection of Michael Watson is a must see for anyone who appreciates the sweet science All time great performance! Dying breed those 2. Bread can you elaborate a little more on them both and where you rate them historically. I still don’t believe they get the respect their immense talents deserve.Sam from Australia
Bread’s Response: When I want a fighter to learn how to box violently without running, I let them watch James Toney vs Mike McCallum 1 & 2. Technical brilliance, without the clinching. Punch variety. Great chins. Great stamina. Solid fundamentals. I believe both are underrated. Both are ATG.
Starting with McCallum. Critics look and they see he fought at the same time as the 4 Kings. Which he did. But McCallum turned pro in 1981 and didn’t win a title until 1984. By 1984 all 4 of the Kings were HOFs. So it’s not always an age thing. It’s an establishment thing. McCallum established himself way after them, so the money was in fighting each other and not so much him. However, I do believe Hearns should have fought him but that’s one the main reasons he’s underrated. Speaking of Eddie Futch. That wasn’t McCallum’s only trainer. McCallum had several trainers and affiliations and I think that may have hurt him also. If you look closely in his corner early in his career during his Junior Middleweight rise. He was the Lou Duva, Emanuel Steward, Eddie Futch and another trainer that I don’t recognize. I’m not sure why he switched trainers so often but I think it hurt him with getting the Hearns fight.
Emanuel Steward favored Hearns over him in terms of treatment. I’m not getting into who was right or wrong. Just stating that I think that hurt his career. So McCallum’s big fights didn’t come against the biggest names of his era. They came against Donald Curry and James Toney. Toney was much younger. I think that cost McCallum’s his star status. Plus you have to realize that just because you’re a great fighter, it doesn’t mean you will be a superstar. For some reason Caribbean and island fighters haven’t been promoted to Super Status. Lennox Lewis is the exception. Simon Brown and Julian Jackson were both terrific fighters in that same era but weren’t promoted to be super stars. Both from the islands….
As far as Toney I think Toney was on his way. HBO loved him. He was a regular. He was young and in his prime. But he lost to Roy Jones, then lost twice to Montell Griffin and lost his prime time status. He got it back with Vasili Jirov but it took him a long time. By the time he got rolling again, he had the PED issues vs John Ruiz. Had Toney officially won the heavyweight championship of the world, he would be right next to Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones of HIS era as the great fighters of the middle weight divisions. Nevertheless I think both are great, great fighters. If you’re a young fighter, often times it’s better to study great skill than great talent. Although you can pick up stuff from everyone. Skill is something that can be practiced. Talent is something that is God Given then enhanced with skill. Watching McCallum and Toney will teach a fighter how to box violently while applying responsible defense. Catch, slip, parry, roll. Counter everything. Constant jabs, consistent body punching. Great chins. Stayed calm and composed the entire fights. Never taking rounds off. Fast and sharp but loose and smooth. I start getting fluttery just talking about those guys. Loved them both.
We have a big week of women’s boxing coming up. Who do you favor in both bouts and why?
Bread’s Response: Glad you wrote this. I will be the fist to admit I don’t watch enough women’s boxing. But I did see Katie Taylor vs Amanda Serrano and that was a real fight. I loved it. They both put on a show. I’m going to take the easy but honest way out thought. I don’t like to make a prediction on a fight unless I’ve seen a fighter fight 3 complete fights. You can usually get a baseline reading in 3 fights. Once they could be having a bad day or they could be fighting over their head. Twice maybe but not likely. Three times you know what you’re looking at. Out of the 4 ladies, I have only seen Claressa Shields fight 3 or more times. She’s terrific. She’s a fast handed, attacking boxer. With a mean streak and superior conditioning. Shields is one of the best fighters in the world, male or female. But I haven’t seen enough of her opponent. Only highlights. From what I’ve seen in highlights, Marshall is tall, smooth and throws some very hard punches. She also punches to the body well and Peter Fury really has her going. I think he’s the real deal as a trainer. I really like him. I did see their amateur bout 10 years ago and although this fight is being promoted as sort of Shields’s revenge because it’s her only loss. Shields won that fight. That scoring was flawed big time. It was competitive, but Shields won clear enough. I have noticed the betting odds are practically even. I think that’s the case because Marshall is most likely much improved. The one thing I have noticed about Marshall is she’s very calm. She’s ice, where as Shields is fire. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn’t. I’m very curious to see how this plays out.
In the other match up, it looks like Mayer is the favorite but I’m not sure if she should be. She’s more established but from what I’ve seen this is a close 50/50 fight. Mayer is busier and she has a great coach in Al Mitchell. She also has Top Rank behind her and she was standout amateur. I’ve seen her fight once. She’s very good but I did notice she was hit often for an elite fighter. In terms of skills they seem even. But Alicia Baumgartner seems stronger, faster and a naturally better athlete. That doesn’t mean she’s a better fighter, but my eyes tell me she’s the superior athlete. I’ve only seen her fight twice. She was terrific. She can punch, she can box and she has excellent balance. From what I have seen Mayer is going to have to really put the pressure on her, without getting clipped. Again I have no prediction but I think those odds should be closer like the main event.
Bread Man,
Did you see the De Los Santos vs Valenzuela fight and stoppage. I thought it was proper what did you think? Is De Los santos ready for top names at 135 he seems to have power like Tank and Rollie but there are levels to the game when it comes to power and the ability to deliver that power against elite opposition. How do you see Ra’eese Aleem vs Stephen Fulton going.
I see it like may weather vs Judah with two super athletic boxers fighting a close fight for 6-8 rounds with the better conditioned higher skilled fighter Fulton pulling away late. How do you see Aleem fairing against Inoue? Aleem reminds me of Tim Bradley in all of his best attributes but like Tim is vulnerable to sharpshooters like Fulton and Inoue. I thought AJ looked better in this fight. I think he will do better against bigger heavyweights who aren’t as elusive.
However fury and Usyk are both so fluid and such natural relaxed boxers that I think he will always be up against it with them. How much could a steady diet of jump rope swimming and speed bag with a no lifting mandate help improve his fluidity and ability to run combos without gassing out at this point?
Billy Bomaye
“Just saw that amateur fight between Shield and Marshall. Shields won that fight. That doesn’t mean she will win as pros a decade later. But they shouldn’t have let that video out because a big part of the promotion is Marshall beat her in the amateurs.”
For some reason I get a feeling you’re betting on this fight. So with all that said tell us who’s winning Bread.
Bread’s Response: I really don’t know. Shields opens up often and it may seem like she can be clipped but it never happens. She’s not known as a big puncher but she seems to put her opponents in a state of withdraw. I’m curious to see if Marshall submits to here. If she does Shileds will win a UD. If she doesn’t this will be a good fight, because fighters who throw violent punches but aren’t big ko artist, give their opponents plenty of chances to ko them. As of now I’m not betting but if I were to bet it would be on the over.
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